Monday, December 26, 2011


Maybe you can suggest some other differences between "reality" and the "culture."


Fredd said...


Andy's wrong. We indeed should all go back to living in caves and eschewing progress. If you ask me, even the Luddites are way too progressive for my likes, what with their buggy whips, washboards and all other manner of the devil's tools.

Don't bother me with the technicalities that suggest that there are only so many caves we can all live in, and that there aren't even close to enough caves for everyone. The 'good' people with be given the caves, and the rest of you 280 million 'bad' people need to just go away.

And I don't care how you all go away. Just go.

Joe said...

Fredd: But according to liberals, there are no bad people, only people the government should give your money to (except for conservatives, that is).

Craig said...

What? Those works of fiction aren't 100% historically accurate? I watched Pocahontas countless times with my daughter when she was young. Don't tell me Pocahontas wasn't built like a bustier Malibu Barbie. I'll be crushed.

This is lame, even by your standards, Joe.

This was said by a real life person (later identified as Karl Rove) to a real life reporter (Ron Suskind) in 2004,

The aide [Rove] said that guys like me [Suskind] were "in what we call the reality-based community," which he defined as people who "believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality." ... "That's not the way the world really works anymore," he continued. "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors…and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."

Take that, Cliff Klavin.

Joe said...

Craig: "This is lame, even by your standards, Joe."

I'm gratified that you think I have any standards at all.

Joe said...

Craig: Just to stick to the actual subject of the vid (did you even watch it?), did Kennedy contemplate withdrawing from Viet Nam, as in the movie, or did he actually escalate three times?

Did he cut taxes or raise them?

Was Lee Harvey Oswald a leftist or a rightist?

Which version is what actually happened?

With regard to the second point about "evangelical Christians, do they more often try to keep people alive, or do they condone murder?

Are primative societies, in general, more or less violent than civilized ones?

Do they have better, worse or about equal access to quality medicines that increase life-spans?

Are primitive societies' values superior to your values?

Can you spot the principles put forth by Klavan in this vid?

Do you recognize principles when you see them?

What about the principles laid out in the Constitution...can you spot them?

tha malcontent said...

It's not that people don't see it, the people "WON'T see it
And the people who won't see it, never will.

Craig said...

Joe, Yes, I watched. Wasn't Klavan's point that a hand full of films and a TV show, all of which identify themselves as fictional, is proof that liberals confuse fantasy with culture (I assume he means reality)? I never saw JFK, I think Stone is a ham handed hack. Most people think it was what it was. A fiction based on conspiracy theory, except for those who believe conspiracy theories. If you think the Left is more susceptible than the Right to conspiracies, then you don't read your own blog.

To your specific points.

did Kennedy contemplate withdrawing from Viet Nam

Depends who you believe. Yes, according to John M. Newman, historian, a major in the U.S. Army, an intelligence officer and author of, "JFK and Vietnam".

Kennedy had decided to begin a phased withdrawal from Vietnam, that he had ordered this withdrawal to begin.

No, according to famous Righty, Noam Chomsky in his book, "Rethinking Camelot". So much for Klavan's neat Left/Right boxes.

Kennedy cut the top marginal tax rate from 91% t0 70% while closing tax loopholes, effectively raising the taxes actually paid by those at the top.

Lee Harvey considered himself a Communist but he really didn't dig the lifestyle. So what.

With regard to the second point about "evangelical Christians, do they more often try to keep people alive, or do they condone murder?

They're great with celebrated brain dead causes and Zygotes. Some of them murder physicians. I'll leave the broad brushing to you.

Are primative societies, in general, more or less violent than civilized ones?

Neither. Psychological pathologies and violence have been part of the human condition for as long as there have been humans. Technological advances (most of which I'm in favor of) have made killing more efficient. If you want to talk about violent primitives, if your Old Testament God existed, He'd be the most prolific mass murderer ever.

Do they have better, worse or about equal access to quality medicines that increase life-spans?

How does a fictional, romanticized version of the past or another culture translate to a rejection of modernity? That's just dumb.

Are primitive societies' values superior to your values?

It's a mixed bag. I don't rely on Dances With Wolves or Avatar for accurate depictions of past or future values. For sure my values are better than this,

1 Samuel 15:2-3
Thus saith the LORD of hosts ... go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

What about the principles laid out in the Constitution...can you spot them?


I'm gratified that you think I have any standards at all.

At our age, we need to get gratification where we can.

Joe, Hope you had a joyous Christmas. I did.

My heartfelt wish for you in the new year. Ducky, XO and I will continue to show you the light. I hope you will follow it to the Reality Based Community.

Ducky's here said...

I can't believe that mamaluc mentioned our "heroic" efforts in Haiti.

We led a coup against Aristide so that a few manufacturers could pay slave wages to ensure Fredd and Jo can get a cheap three pack of briefs (boxers?) at Walmart.

Yeah reality vs. fringe right fantasy.

And if you don't think the left understands that Kennedy pumped up the volume in Vietnam (killing millions for no reason) because he wanted to make sure the Soviets understood we are macho (such a priority) well Joe ... try Errol Morris' brilliant "Fog of War".

That's right Joe, we want you to live in caves. Before you go off the high side again remember we on the left are here to help you live the life of the mind.
I'm fascinated that you and Fredd know so little about the culture that you can be led by the nose by a piece of Klavin's agitprop. Come on Joe, catch a clue.

I hope you had a Merry Christmas.

Ducky's here said...

Fringe right wingers, you are easy to spot. Just talk "culture" with these rubes for a couple minutes.

Fredd, would you like to discuss film or are you going to turtle like usual.
I'll give Joe credit, he states his position and debates. You censor and turtle.

Ducky's here said...

Can you spot the principles put forth by Klavan in this vid?


Yes, take a few examples and attempt to present them as completely representative of a point of view.

NEVER, EVER get into a detailed discussion.

Preach to the choir.

Peddle your stuff with Pajamas media, a notorious right wing organization and claim it is objective.

Engage in jingoistic cliches whenever possible.


Fredd said...

No turtling here, Duck. Just ignoring idiots. Klavan is spot on here in this video clip, and you say he lies.

What's to argue? It's pointless. I call you a moron, you will end up calling me a Nazi (or as I recall last time, you called me a 'sick f**k' if memory serves), and nothing gets accomplished.

If ignoring you is called turtling, then I am fine with that.

sue hanes said...

Joe - I wanted to watch your really cool video about easy to spot Liberals but my bong went out and I have to relite it first.


Lynn Speaks Out said...

Fredd, do you really think that arguing with a fool like Ducky is going to get anywhere?
My mama taught me not to argue with fools, and I have enjoyed that bit of wisdom immensely.

Ducky's here said...

Fredd what about the time you accused the baggage handlers union of being partially responsible for the American Airlines bankruptcy and I pointed out they are only making around $20 an hour, barely a middle class wage today.
You refused to reply or even post it.

Now, is the fringe right so deluded and out of touch that they think Oliver Stone is representative of the totality of film culture today?

Now what would a leftist film theorists be talking about at the moment. Well, Spielberg's in the house with "War Horse", very conservative presentation of a rip off of Bresson's "Au Hasard Balthazar" which is a Gnostic interpretation and a superior film. Now, is Spielberg a "liberal"? Are his films liberal? Is he "Hollywood"?
This isn't something Klavan is even capable of discussing.

Any reaction to Scorcese's "Hugo". Very cold at its core and I don't accept the idea that technology has been the main driver in film evolution. He simultaneously shows a distinct love for Melies but feel he can "improve" his work.
Interesting film, especially in light of the release of "The Artist".

Anyway that's an idea of what a discussion of contemporary film might include. Getting all upset that there are film makers who express ideas you don't agree with is not being a Nazi, it's being a freaking child.

I don't believe the fringe right, especially the religious fringe right, would tolerate a free uncensored culture if they had their way.

Ducky's here said...

Folks should go over to Fredd's site and read "We all know old people are parasites, but what about teachers?".

I don't know if that was the one that tipped me or maybe one of his rants on what to do about Muslims (Hint: Heavy ordnance).

Z said...

Andrew's points are excellent, Joe.

Craig, the O.T.'s full with way worse than that! You know, God's a very mean guy there in comparison to the N.T. of love and acceptance :-)
But, if you read the O.T., you see WHY. Context, my friend.

I had to laugh at all of this, Joe, because I'd just watched a video on eating better; given by a doctor who was diagnosed with MS. She started eating better foods, the same as 'hunters and gatherers' of yore, and actually said, twice, that we need to go back to WHAT THEY KNEW. As if they had a choice of Kale and beans or IHOP's pancakes with sausage and two eggs over easy! :-)
Yes, better to go back to the Dark Ages of unrefined foods and eat like THEY DID, the VERY clear insinuation being they were way smarter than WE are. SUbtle, but clear.

Oh, yes, it's just in how one says it and Klavan's correct in all cases and leaves hundreds out.

Ducky's here said...

Well z, the Christian religious were at each others throats for some time. What's the context, a battle over who's dogma is "truth"?

The Thirty Years war didn't wipe out as much of Europe's population as the plague but it wasn't for lack of trying.

We're still doing a pretty good job but just a bit more surgical.

Ducky's here said...

...and actually said, twice, that we need to go back to WHAT THEY KNEW.


A friend and I were talking several years ago after I gave him a copy of Fagles' translation of the Iliad and said that he was probably the only person I'd ever know who was interested in a new translation of the work.

He mentioned a course he took at SUNY Stony Brook with a well known writer who's name escapes me but who said regarding the Iliad, "The first thing you have to do is get over the idea you know more than these guys."

He thought it as a grat course.

Ducky's here said...

What are we to make of this jerks lies about the Schiavo incident?

We had the sideshow of Senator Frist getting up and trying to overturn due legal process of a state (Federalism anyone, only when it suits your purposes) court.
We should ignore her wishes and listen to a clown like Klaven call people ass nuggets when this moron doesn't recognize that letting someone pass when their brain cavity is nothing more than a stem and a volume of spinal fluid.
Of course when it comes to killing abortion doctors the fringe right is only celebrating life, I imagine.

But my guess is that you turtle rather than dealing with the specifics and the serious ramifications of this tragic case.

Right wingers are easy to spot. They're the ones punching outside their weight.

Fredd said...


Ducky wishes he were only a fool. That would take a major brain transplant to upgrade his status.

But I agree with you. Arguing with fools only makes you look like one, too.

Ducky's here said...

And that folks, is when you know you have the right backed against the wall.

They stay with the ad hominems and assume the fetal position.

Joe said...

Craig: "1 Samuel 15:2-3"

I've only studied and taught Bible for fifty some-odd years.

Please enlighten me about the meaning of that passage in the context of the Bible in its whole.

(Maybe you didn't realize that every verse in Scripture HAS to be taken in the context of the whole or the reader completely misses its point.)

Please tell me how that passage fits into the meaning of the Bible, which is: God's character, His love of His creation and His plan for its redemption.

I must have missed something in my years of studies that you, a seeming expert, have seen.

Oh, please, reveal it all to me. Please!

Ducky's here said...

From Peggy Noonan's column today:

"Final note. We are at a point in our culture when we actually have to pull for grown-up movies, when we must try to encourage them and laud them when they come by. David Lean wouldn't be allowed to make movies today, John Ford would be forced to turn John Wayne into a 30-something failure-to-launch hipster whose big moment is missing the toilet in the vomit scene in Hangover Ten. Our movie culture has descended into immaturity, deep and inhuman violence, a pervasive and flattened sexuality. It is an embarrassment.

In Iraq this year I asked an Iraqi military officer doing joint training at an American base what was the big thing he'd come to believe about Americans in the years they'd been there. He thought. "You are a better people than your movies say." He had judged us by our exports. He had seen the low slag heap of our culture and assumed it was a true expression of who we are."

This came in a column where she gets upset that Margaret Thatcher gets thoroughly trashed in the new biopic.

Craig said...

Please enlighten me about the meaning of that passage in the context of the Bible in its whole.

I'm not going to argue scripture with you. You said,

With regard to the second point about "evangelical Christians, do they more often try to keep people alive, or do they condone murder?

So, there is a context where you not only condone murder, you condone genocide. As long as it's in the name of God. History is littered with atrocities that were "God's command" or "God's will". I guess you can sort out the authentic ones. Murder is murder and genocide is genocide. They're immoral in any context.

Joe said...

Craig: You liberals always come up with the same argument: Christians have killed throughour the centuries.

Only it isn't. True.

Just because I call myself an eagle, doesn't mean I am one.

No Christian wants to kill anyone. Lots of people who CALL themselves Christians might, but real Chrisians don't.

I can do anything "in the name of God." That doesn't mean I have actually done it in the name of God.

Tough to understand, especially for a liberal.

Xavier Onassis said...

Joe - So when God COMMANDS his people to kill women and children, as he did in 1 Samuel 15:2-3, are those murders right or wrong? Were they committed in God's name or not? What possible "context" would make such a slaughter OK?

Enlighten us.

sue hanes said...

Joe et al - A couple of times now I have passed what they call The People's Park here on the big Liberal Campus at Indiana University and those people have little tents set up all around a couple of big ones.

Now Joe - and Others - who knows what they are doing inside of those little tents.

Why today my 12 year old g-daughter (who by the way saw REAL OWSers on a trip to D.C. not too long ago) - said Gramma, are they hippies? And so I proceeded to say,
'Honey, ever heard of Woodstock?'

So tommorrow Joe - I'm gonna go down there and check it out for myself - maybe see what those people are on - you know - and maybe kick some hippie b*tt.

I'll give a full report here on your blog.

I'm gonna do it Joe.

if that's ok with you cause it is after all your blog joe

Lone Ranger said...

1 Samuel 15:2-3

Whenever left-wing bigots want to smear Christians, they always quote the Old Testament (Hebrew Bible), ignoring the fact that Christ NEVER advocated killing. They also avoid the fact that Jesus was sent by God to implement a New Covenant -- a relationship of restoration and peace, following a period of trial and judgment.

That's what makes the the bigots pathetic rather than dangerous.