Saturday, May 23, 2015

A Pre-Memorial Day Special


sue hanes said...

Joe - Ha ha.

Dave Miller said...

Joe, is pointing out that Presidents Obama and Clinton did not serve a way of mocking them, or saying that you believe our presidents should have military experience?

Joe said...

DM: I mock their character, of which they have very, very little that's good. I also believe military experience helps the person who is going to be the Commander In Chief of the military. That sort of makes sense to me. Doesn't it to you?

Dave Miller said...

No Joe, it doesn't, necessarily.

None of the following Presidents had military experience..

John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, John Quincy Adams, Martin Van Buren, Millard Fillmore, Grover Cleveland, William Howard Taft, Woodrow Wilson, Warren G. Harding, Calvin Coolidge, Herbert Hoover and Franklin D. Roosevelt.

Lincoln only served in his state militia.

While some of these guys were nothing special, others were pretty good presidents.

One could also argue that GW Bush's experience did not give him any special insight into military matters, as he basically bungled the entire Iraq experience until the surge.

Joe said...

DM: I stand by my statement. It makes sense for the Commander In Chief to have had military experience.

"Lincoln only served in his state militia."


"...he basically bungled the entire Iraq experience until the surge."


Dave Miller said...

Joe, it's not even in dispute.

1. The reason for going in was wrong. No WMD.

2. We were not prepared with sufficient armor for our troops, resulting in countless deaths and preventable injuries.

3. There was no plan for the peace, or the time after Saddams overthrow.

4. The CPA disbanded the entire military leaving hound refs of thousands of Iraqis unemployed with no way to feed their families. They quickly became insurgents.

5. Billions of dollars have been spent, or lost, and cannot be accounted for.

6. Bush left office with a SOFA that dictated when our troops had to leave.

7. The admin claimed thus would be a "cakewalk." How did that turn out?

Really Joe, not even a majority of GOP Presidential candidates now believe we did this right, given what we now know.

In regards to Lincoln, most accounts agree he saw no combat and his words did not want to. He was discharged a captain, but reenlisted as a private because he was unemployed and had no money.

Those are not very sterling military credentials. Don't try and make the Illinois Militia into something it wasn't. Least not, his service.

We'll have to agree to disagree on military service, for as many good leaders with a service record, there are others without one.

Joe said...

DM: Please note that I said (and I quote, as indicated by the quotation marks), "I also believe military experience helps the person who is going to be the Commander In Chief of the military."

I did not say it was a requirement.

Ducky's here said...

Dave has quite properly demonstrated that his limited experience did nothing to help Bush exercise prudence before the Iraq fiasco.

You also picture Nixon. Did his experience prevent him from carrying on with the insane idea that the Vietnam war could be won (let's save Vietnam from the Vietnamese)?
It didn't help him idnore Kissinger (the old Foggy Bottom Bombardier) and prevent the disasterous spread into Cambodia.

How did their experience help them?

Ducky's here said...

Joe, it's interesting that the one with extensive command experience in the group you pictured is also the president who warned us about the power of the military industrial complex.

We still aren't listening regardless of who's in the WH.

Dave Miller said...

Joe, I think GWB demonstrated a love of soldiers that it does seem that Obama is missing, at least publicly.

But perhaps it was his bravado, brought on by his experience, that caused him to go into Iraq without sufficient planning, relying solely on his hope in the ultimate superiority of our military.

I think an argument could be made that a civilian will make the military and the Pentagon think through their plans better knowing they will be facing a more skeptical audience.

But that's just me.

But as Ducky asked, could you explain how GW's experience, apart from his emotional attachment to our soldiers, helped him make better decisions during the Iraq war?

Dave Miller said...

Good point on Ike Ducky...

But to listen to him would mean dismantling the economy of congressional districts across the country.

Great strategy of our congress wasn't it? Build every weapon system in every district and then it is impossible to ever suspend, or terminate a weapon, because of impending economic devastation...

Ducky's here said...

It's unfortunate, Dave and may be a reason that TPP eventually passes.

I notice Joe's been quiet.