tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7632224842501413538.post1192839223412993917..comments2023-10-10T05:30:54.239-04:00Comments on Jo-Joe Politico: LET'S TALK ABOUT THOMAS JEFFERSONJoehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09693381971064363612noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7632224842501413538.post-2240707584911258442009-07-08T11:17:09.363-04:002009-07-08T11:17:09.363-04:00Joe,
I happened across your post as I was doing s...Joe,<br /><br />I happened across your post as I was doing some research, and although it has been some months since this thread was active, I thought I would post a comment.<br /><br />Overall, I think you did a fair job In your commentay of accurately portraying Jefferson's spiritual views as they relate to him personally. However, I would note that several of the quotes appearing at the end of your post appear out of context. <br /><br />But I take exception specifically with one of your responses in the comments section where you state: "Congress gave assent to the Treaty of Tripoli, negotiated by Jefferson's friend Joel Barlow, which stated...that "the government of the United States of America...has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of (Muslims)." <br /><br />You have disingenuously removed the portion of Article 11 of that treaty most relevant to your premise on the nature of our government's founding. <br /><br />The full text reads, as you know:<br /><br />"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of (Muslims)"Jeffnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7632224842501413538.post-65962916740545203202009-05-16T11:28:00.000-04:002009-05-16T11:28:00.000-04:00Ration Al-This country was founded on Judeo-Christ...Ration Al-This country was founded on Judeo-Christian values, not sectarian/denominational ones.<br /><br />Therefore it is a Christian(actually, it no longer is)nation from it's inception. And the original intent of the founders WAS indeed for it to be a Christian nation.<br /><br />Not, Lutheran, not Presbyterian, not Methodist or Episcopalian or Congregationalist...simply to be anchored on The Rock and Scriptural morality.<br /><br />In the 1960's, we threw that all away, and we are reaping the consequences...<br /><br />tmwThe Merry Widowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07931051881434050901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7632224842501413538.post-76227973353427314392009-05-15T21:06:00.000-04:002009-05-15T21:06:00.000-04:00I am a Democrat who considers the Libertarian Part...I am a Democrat who considers the Libertarian Party the conscious of American politics. People too soon forget that the foundation of conservatism -- and our country -was not Christianity, but fear of the concentration of power.<br /><br />Christianity was there at the beginning, but it intentionally took a back seat in the affairs of government.<br /><br />The Constitution was intended to be a living document, and to be the beginning of a body of laws that build on the inherent ambiguity and tensions designed into the Constitution.<br /><br />The Constitution was designed to solve a particular problem at a particular point in time, and the Framers knew they couldn't anticipate everything.<br /><br />The rights of man are maleable - whence the Bill of Rights, which Hamilton argued against btw. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are very broad and ambiguous concepts. Hence the need to amend the Constitution with the Bill of Rights.<br /><br />The definitions of and relationship between the branches of government, and the role of government, were specifically designed to be maleable as well.<br /><br />All you have to do is read the Constitution and read the debates at the constitutional convention to understand this.<br /><br />Now, on a Christian nation.<br /><br />The Declaration mentions God, but not Christ. And the Constitution doesn't even mention God. Sure, there were, early on, local Christain loyalty oaths, but the fact of the matter is:<br /><br />The USA was built by a diverse crowd of beliefs, with a majority of them Christian. But there were lots of others, and they were pretty darn vocal at thge constitutional convention, and there was a extremely wide array of beliefs within Christians.<br /><br />Those Christians came to America to large extent because of state sanctioned religion and the concentration of power in the monarchy.<br /><br />They had Christian values but, CLEARLY, wanted to put a country mile between organized religion and the State.<br /><br />That's the right answer, and they had no problem dealing with what current day political evangelicals call hypocrisy - going to Church every Sunday and putting aside a bias towards organized religion in matters of government.<br /><br />It really is interesting - the rapture right of today would consider many of the founders hypocrits.Ration Alnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7632224842501413538.post-39054474320891548642009-05-15T18:54:00.000-04:002009-05-15T18:54:00.000-04:00great post, joe - i'm glad z pointed me over here....great post, joe - i'm glad z pointed me over here. ihs, i disagree that people call others (or themselves) christians based on some moral code and not based on the blood of the lamb. one can be godly but still not be a christian. that is where i would paint jefferson.<br /><br />tapline, you KNOW i love you, but i have to take extreme exception to this statement: "I do believe that the constitution is a living document and it is necessary for it to change from time to time."<br /><br />the constitution is NOT a living document. it is a binding contract and that is why it is unable to be changed in any manner except through an amendment. there is a legal process for passing an amendment layed out in the constitution and that is the only manner in which the constitution can/may be changed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7632224842501413538.post-53776216821519417682009-05-15T12:29:00.000-04:002009-05-15T12:29:00.000-04:00Joe-Well, one can hold to a stated position with t...Joe-Well, one can hold to a stated position with their life, but when push comes to shove, it's what G*D says in the end...and Christianity is solidly anchored on the Lord Jesus Christ's being the Eternal Son of G*D incarnate, 100% G*D and 100% man...so, Jefferson for all his intellectual powers, is wrong.<br /><br />Dead and gone to Hell wrong.<br /><br />tmw<br />A true pity!The Merry Widowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07931051881434050901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7632224842501413538.post-26339982145343747712009-05-15T12:13:00.000-04:002009-05-15T12:13:00.000-04:00Sorry, Joe..somehow, I thought you were suggesting...Sorry, Joe..somehow, I thought you were suggesting Jefferson was a Christian and I was kind of stunned.. Should have known better.<br /><br />I.H.S...TMW.. both great points..thanks. And thank you, Joe!<br />blessed weekend to you!Zhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15989573357446569262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7632224842501413538.post-36528595986546881722009-05-15T11:56:00.000-04:002009-05-15T11:56:00.000-04:00Z, in the true sense of the word Christian one can...Z, in the true sense of the word Christian one can't be if one doesn't accept the divinity of Jesus.<br /><br />However, as I have said many times; the definition of christian no longer entails the belief of Jesus' divinity but rather refers to the moral ethical life of an individual. Which why I believe it is easier to identify Jefferson as a Chrsitian than with anyother group.<br /><br />Blessings.I.H.S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/03861841487009504207noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7632224842501413538.post-5433763767747994472009-05-15T11:36:00.000-04:002009-05-15T11:36:00.000-04:00The Merry Widow: "by evidence of Jefferson's own s...The Merry Widow: "by evidence of Jefferson's own stated writings, he cannot be a Christian."<br /><br />You know that and I know that, but Jefferson would not have agreed with us. (Although he would probably not argued with us about it. He would have just expressed disdain and walked away.)Joehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09693381971064363612noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7632224842501413538.post-37192281688627967282009-05-15T11:30:00.000-04:002009-05-15T11:30:00.000-04:00And, if a person cannot speak of sometime in their...And, if a person cannot speak of sometime in their life there having been a change of heart and an opening of understanding of spiritual things, they are not a Christian.<br /><br />I respect Thomas Jefferson, but if he couldn't accept the divinity of Jesus Christ, then HIS atoning death on the cross is rendered meaningless and useless...therefore, by evidence of Jefferson's own stated writings, he cannot be a Christian.<br /><br />Not a pagan, but not a born again believer either.<br /><br />tmwThe Merry Widowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07931051881434050901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7632224842501413538.post-34595464029172877492009-05-15T11:25:00.000-04:002009-05-15T11:25:00.000-04:00Z: "Didn't he even remove Jesus's quo...Z: "Didn't he even remove Jesus's quotes from the New Testament?"<br /><br />No...only the ones that he thought refer to Jesus as divine.<br /><br />He is reported to have actually used a razor blade to physically extract them from the Bible.<br /><br />I agree. I don't know how someone can consider themselves Christian if they don't believe in John 3:16 and Romans 10:9&10, et. al.<br /><br />Jefferson had no trouble with that, though.Joehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09693381971064363612noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7632224842501413538.post-18594717500843554712009-05-15T11:11:00.000-04:002009-05-15T11:11:00.000-04:00It's an interesting read, for sure, but very diffi...It's an interesting read, for sure, but very difficult for me to wrap my mind around a guy who doesn't believe in the divinity of Jesus being called a Christian. Didn't he even remove Jesus's quotes from the New Testament? I believe so. <br />What's Paul say? Something about "if the resurrection didn't happen, we HAVE no faith, no hope..?"<br /><br />As Mark said, Jefferson certainly was no atheist, that's true. I agree with shoprat, too.Zhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15989573357446569262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7632224842501413538.post-46065587129098741702009-05-15T09:18:00.000-04:002009-05-15T09:18:00.000-04:00Tao, wealth in itself is not evil. Jesus plainly s...Tao, wealth in itself is not evil. Jesus plainly said the love of wealth is the root of evil. <br /><br />Liberals never seem to draw the right conclusions about wealthy people. <br /><br />They are not evil simply because they are rich. Some wealthy people happen to be both rich and evil, because they love their wealth more than they love God. That is the point Jesus was making.<br /><br />There are millions of poor evil people. What is their excuse?<br /><br />And for the record, I am not wealthy. I have to go to my office now and collect my $59.50 paycheck. That's for last week.<br /><br />I just understand the difference between money and it's juxtaposition to the first commandment.Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15633208787250567256noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7632224842501413538.post-3191964284895875792009-05-15T08:42:00.000-04:002009-05-15T08:42:00.000-04:00Pitbull,
"Environment" is a word used to explain ...Pitbull,<br /><br />"Environment" is a word used to explain why the poor are poor. Why people commit crimes, and all of that...and that is a liberal argument.<br /><br />I also don't buy the argument that it was the 'times' that made our founding fathers who they were.<br /><br />One of the things about the bill of rights and the constitution is that there is absoluetly no discussion about wealth, economics, and or money. <br /><br />But yet, today that is all we discuss.<br /><br />The new testament does go on and on about the evils of wealth.<br /><br />Having principles takes risks and risks can cost one alot of money and can risk alot of ones wealth.<br /><br />But how much money does it take to comfort the soul when one has no principles.<br /><br />I do believe that the constitution is a living document and it is necessary for it to change from time to time. <br /><br />But I believe that a lot of the changes we need to see, such as abortion, are incapable of being changed by a constitutional amendment and rather could be changed by people living lives with principles.TAOhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452702225885449029noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7632224842501413538.post-79245606081212122872009-05-15T00:13:00.000-04:002009-05-15T00:13:00.000-04:00[It's still legal - and always God-honoring - to a...[It's still legal - and always God-honoring - to air messages like the following. (See Ezekiel 3:18-19.) In light of government backing of raunchy behavior (such offenders were even executed in early America!), maybe the separation we really need is the "separation of raunch and state"!]<br /><br />In Luke 17 in the New Testament, Jesus said that one of the big "signs" that will happen shortly before His return to earth as Judge will be a repeat of the "days of Lot" (see Genesis 19 for details). So gays are actually helping to fulfill this same worldwide "sign" (and making the Bible even more believable!) and thus hurrying up the return of the Judge! They are accomplishing what many preachers haven't accomplished! Gays couldn't have accomplished this by just coming out of closets into bedrooms. Instead, they invented new architecture - you know, closets opening on to Main Streets where little kids would be able to watch naked men having sex with each other at festivals in places like San Francisco (where their underground saint - San Andreas - may soon get a big jolt out of what's going on over his head!). Thanks, gays, for figuring out how to bring back our resurrected Saviour even quicker!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7632224842501413538.post-78131264607966880852009-05-14T22:23:00.000-04:002009-05-14T22:23:00.000-04:00Jefferson as Unitarian had more in common with Chr...Jefferson as Unitarian had more in common with Christians then he does modern secularists but that simple fact is lost on some people.shoprathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05265612188236394307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7632224842501413538.post-48542350469213080982009-05-14T20:56:00.000-04:002009-05-14T20:56:00.000-04:00Yes, and of course it was made in good faith.Yes, and of course it was made in good faith.Ration Alnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7632224842501413538.post-9768071974407365562009-05-14T20:55:00.000-04:002009-05-14T20:55:00.000-04:00In 1786, the newly founded United States found tha...In 1786, the newly founded United States found that it was having to deal very directly with the tenets of the Muslim religion. <br /><br />The Barbary states of North Africa were using the ports of what we know today as Algeria, Libya, and Tunisia to wage a war of piracy and enslavement against all shipping that passed through the Strait of Gibraltar.<br /><br />Congress gave assent to the Treaty of Tripoli, negotiated by Jefferson's friend Joel Barlow, which stated...that "the government of the United States of America...has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of (Muslims)." <br /><br />Having read Quran (Koran), and having decided that it was a dangerous writing, Jefferson decided to make war on the Muslim states of North Africa as soon as the opportunity presented itself.<br /><br />I wonder what Prsident BO would think of Jefferson (and his "Bible") if he had any knowledge of that little piece of history?Joehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09693381971064363612noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7632224842501413538.post-73249532886552112682009-05-14T20:15:00.000-04:002009-05-14T20:15:00.000-04:00joe, wasn't it Jefferson who spoke to the koran or...joe, wasn't it Jefferson who spoke to the koran or the Moslem people??? I seem to remember something about that in some of his writings and they weren't complimentary remarks...If I read your post correctly, He also points to some religions who are not what most expect,but they can be laughted off out of doors...Not quite huh..Or did I misread......Outstanding post as usual and I didn't think it was too long when one wants to make certain points one must include as much information available to make the point.....Great post......stay well...Taplinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00161842191574184492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7632224842501413538.post-7684855583472388232009-05-14T20:00:00.000-04:002009-05-14T20:00:00.000-04:00mark: Thank you...your kindness is greatly appreci...mark: Thank you...your kindness is greatly appreciated.Joehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09693381971064363612noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7632224842501413538.post-6988477117348627422009-05-14T19:59:00.000-04:002009-05-14T19:59:00.000-04:00Ration Al: I actually thank you for your comment,...Ration Al: I actually thank you for your comment, and will trust tht it was made in good faith, as its tone seems.Joehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09693381971064363612noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7632224842501413538.post-73829993337722786422009-05-14T19:58:00.000-04:002009-05-14T19:58:00.000-04:00bluepitbull: The rules are designed to keep one co...bluepitbull: The rules are designed to keep one commenter from ATTACKING another. I don't mind if you, as you always do, engage in dialog. I just ask that everybody keep to the point, be as brief as possible (I'm a good one to be talking about brievity...right?), not call one another names, and engage in discourse, not inane ad hominims.Joehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09693381971064363612noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7632224842501413538.post-42840711216063850172009-05-14T19:53:00.000-04:002009-05-14T19:53:00.000-04:00How is it a liberal argument?
How, in any way doe...How is it a liberal argument?<br /><br />How, in any way does it argue that we cannot go back to the founding principles?<br /><br />Just because we live in a different time doesn't mean that we can't follow the rules. By that reasoning we can't follow the Golden Rules or the Ten Commandments, and I have a hard time believing that you don't follow those, either Tao.<br /><br />Anyway, I won't make this a personal discussion, as per posting rules, Joe. Good discussion, as usual.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04014273634505096181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7632224842501413538.post-71514862966512109032009-05-14T19:23:00.000-04:002009-05-14T19:23:00.000-04:00I do believe that hell has indeed turned into a Fr...I do believe that hell has indeed turned into a Frigidaire dealership. I can't believe I would ever say this:<br /><br />Good post, Joe.<br /><br />That was a good bit of scholarly work you did - job well done, and very well articulated.<br /><br />Jefferson did respect the best that Christianity has to offer, as I do, and as you obviously do.<br /><br />Sincrerely,<br /><br />Ration AlRation Alnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7632224842501413538.post-4878355205133279492009-05-14T13:37:00.000-04:002009-05-14T13:37:00.000-04:00I think that is as good a scholarly work as any Ph...I think that is as good a scholarly work as any PhD. Jeffersoon probably wasn't a Christian, in the good ol' Southern Baptist sense, but neither was he an atheist.<br /><br />Great post, Joe!Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15633208787250567256noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7632224842501413538.post-70912086674852972012009-05-14T10:26:00.000-04:002009-05-14T10:26:00.000-04:00Thank you Bluepitbull...
If Jefferson was a produ...Thank you Bluepitbull...<br /><br />If Jefferson was a product of his environment then obviously as the environment changes so do the product and or people of the environment.<br /><br />Which means that we CANNOT go back to the principles of the founding fathers without recreating the environment.<br /><br />Which means that you believe all of us are creatures of our environment? <br /><br />Kind of a liberal argument don't you think?TAOhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452702225885449029noreply@blogger.com